A problem with the language of chiyuv (obligation)
In the comments to my Conflicts of principle post, Al [frequent comment Miami Al?] said, " . . . we're . . . reducing the obligations of men to increase them for women. . . . Further, taking on the obligations by women doesn't relieve the men of there obligations, so you haven't solved a problem." In the comments to the linked post from last week, JDub said, "In Orthodoxy -- even modern orthodoxy -- men are obligated to daven, women aren't. So when men are in shul, they are supposed to be "in shul" and not running childcare groups. No amount of saying "oh, everyone can fill these roles" will change that."
But that's exactly what I think needs to be changed--not to reduce the obligations of men, but to increase the obligations of men in other areas.
And here's where the language of chiyuv (halachic obligation) becomes an issue.
By way of illustration, I present two examples:
- P'ru u-r'vu (Be fruitful and multiply)
But what happens before, after, and in between?
There's no chiyuv to tell Bible stories to your kid (one of my favorite forms of entertainment during long subway rides home with our son), no chiyuv to read your kid bedtime stories (my husband's specialty), no chiyuv to take your kid for a dental check-up, no chiyuv to make sure your kid wears his/her glasses to school everyday . . .
Yet no child is going to growing up healthy and properly-educated without these efforts.
- Seudat Mitzah (a "commanded" meal)
Every Jew has a chiyuv to eat a Seudat Mitzvah.
But no one has a chiyuv to make a Seudat Mitzvah.
Does dinner get cooked by itself?!
I'm truly convinced that some of the laws of chiyuv are going to have to be adjusted to acknowledge the fact that not only can't one have a structure without an infrastructure, but, that, in this day and age, not every women is going to be willing always to be the construction crew and never to be the architect. As Rejewvenator commented here, "there's nothing non-egal about the idea that each family has one primary 'prayer representative' at any given prayer. In other words, if young kids means only one spouse can make it to shul for the bulk of the service, so be it, but I know lots of couples that switch off who that person is each week." [Before anyone complains that the obvious halachic solution is to have one of the parents go to an earlier minyan to enable the other to attend a later minyan, I'd like to point out that there are plenty of communities (such as mine) in which there's only one service, which means that only one person gets to go to shul, unless the kid(s), no matter how young, go too.] But this idea won't function unless and until the definitions are changed. Only if child-rearing becomes as much as a chiyuv as child-making, and preparing a seudat mitzvah becomes as much as a chiyuv as eating a seudat mitzvah, will there be true equality of men and women among traditional Jews. We can't blame a guy for walking out the door and leaving his wife to make a special Yom Tov lunch for the invited guests as long as his obligation to davven/pray at specific times, preferably with a minyan, is written into halachah/Jewish religious law, but his obligation to prepare a Yom Tov meal is not. Only if the chiyuvim (chiyuvot?) are equal will men and women be free to chose.
The floor is open.
15 Comments:
I stand by my earlier point. In non-halachic movements like yours, it's no problem to "make" obligations. In halachic communities -- that is to say, Orthodox -- your approach fails. There should be no problem in non-halachic communities other than traditionally defined roles (what you would probably call sexism), since nobody takes obligations seriously any way.
But in my shul, men go to daven. Many women do as well. But the groups are run by women (and teenage girls) and nobody has a problem with it.
Which Judaism is the real Judaism?
Please allow me give you a few little clues:
In real Judaism, there are no “Rabbis” who deny the Divine origin of the Torah.
In real Judaism, there are no “Rabbis” who eat non-kosher foods.
In real Judaism, there are no “gay Rabbis” and no “lesbian Rabbis.”
In real Judaism, there are no “marriage” ceremonies that unite Jewish men with non-Jewish women or non-Jewish men with Jewish women.
In real Judaism, there are no “interfaith Passover seders.”
In real Judaism, there are no Jews who pray in churches.
Mr. Cohen, welcome aboard! You're welcome to express your opinion, but I think it would be fair to warn you that we're not likely to agree on halachic issues.
"In non-halachic movements like yours, it's no problem to "make" obligations. In halachic communities -- that is to say, Orthodox -- your approach fails."
More's the pity, JDub. But I guess I think like the Conservative Jew that I am.
"There should be no problem in non-halachic communities other than traditionally defined roles (what you would probably call sexism), since nobody takes obligations seriously any way."
Al and Larry said the same thing.
"But in my shul, men go to daven. Many women do as well. But the groups are run by women (and teenage girls) and nobody has a problem with it."
Nobody?! Sigh. I wish more *women* would comment on my blog. :(
nobody has a problem with it. the women (like my wife) who say they go to shul to daven do so. Those women and girls who are less inclined to daven and go to get other things out of the community, feel they get something out of running groups.
Feminism used to be about letting people choose their roles. It's become, instead, a means to force everyone into the same role. That's the problem.
Maybe. But I still find it curious that I get so few female readers on my egalitarian blog.
"So few female readers..."
Maybe your male readers are just more vocal.
Re: your actual post, are you familiar with the concept of hechsher mitzva? The status of mitzva-enabling-act exists already. You seem to be sort of trying to upgrade hechsher mitzva to mitzva, if I understood you correctly. I see why you want to, but... If, as it appears, this is your recommendation for Orthodoxy... I don't think that suggestions of major changes in halacha are usually taken well by most of Orthodox Judaism.
"Maybe your male readers are just more vocal."
That would be pretty ironic, considering how vociferously I've complained about kol ishah. :)
"are you familiar with the concept of hechsher mitzva?
Nope. I never went to day school, and consider myself a member in good standing of the B'nai u-V'not Akiva Late Learners Club. :)
The status of mitzva-enabling-act exists already. You seem to be sort of trying to upgrade hechsher mitzva to mitzva,"
Yep.
" I don't think that suggestions of major changes in halacha are usually taken well by most of Orthodox Judaism."
Yeah, so I've noticed. Sigh.
After ages of losing sight of your blog, here I am again (and female, to boot).
In general, I notice that there's no separate chiyuv to enable mitzvot like eating a seudat mitzvah- because, I think, it's an inherent piece of the mitzvah. Perhaps framing that reality as a religious task will bring it to get more co-ed participation. I'm leery of re-labeling too many new things chiyuvim. In any case, women are no more obligated to do these non-obligatory-but-necessary things than men are- that's a cultural expectation. I guess I'm more willing to push women to daven at shul and encourage families to prepare their yontif meals during other times, than I am to push men to stay home. But I certainly recognize the tension- and appreciate the clarity with which you laid it out.
If I'm incoherent, I appologize- it's past my bedtime, and I just spent the evening doing my share of the shabbos preparations, since I get home from work tomorrow about 20 minutes before candle-lighting...
Maya, welcome!
"Perhaps framing that reality as a religious task will bring it to get more co-ed participation."
I certainly hope so. To be fair, though, I must say that I've gotten good cooking advice from some of my male readers, Ortho and otherwise.
"I'm leery of re-labeling too many new things chiyuvim." You may have a point.
"I guess I'm more willing to push women to daven at shul and encourage families to prepare their yontif meals during other times, than I am to push men to stay home."
Easier said than done--we're *both* up past our bedtimes! But it's worth working on. In the meantime, goodnight.
A quick p.s. to Maya, since I see that you blog about head-coverings: I don't know whether you're checked out any of my old "kisui rosh" posts (look for kisui rosh, kisui-rosh, head-covering, hat, etc.), but I've finally settled on a beret for my visits to Orthodox synagogues or other places in which I'm not sure how accepted a woman in a kippah would be. My head's small enough that most hats are too big, and the ones that fit give me a headache.
"" I don't think that suggestions of major changes in halacha are usually taken well by most of Orthodox Judaism."
Yeah, so I've noticed. Sigh."
Since you're not Orthodox, why do you care (or comment) about it? Why do you care what women in my shul do? It's not your business or your issue.
And since you like to retreat to the "oh, I'm so deprived I didn't go to day school" shtick, don't try to change halacha (esp that of movements to which you do not belong). And the "I'm so ignorant" shtick is getting old. I didn't go to day school. I don't believe Larry Lennhoff went to day school. Yet we're fairly knowledgeable. Go out and study rather than criticize. Stop getting your information from the internet and start going out and actually learning.
Rant over, and a gut shabbos. May this shabbat bring peace to the people of Israel in the Land of Israel as they fight yet another battle.
"Since you're not Orthodox, why do you care . . . "
Because I'm a Jew. There are plenty of Orthodox Jews who get upset by decisions and/or actions that take place in non-Orthodox communities. Just read the articles and/or editorial in the Jewish press for proof. Why shouldn't the criticism go both ways? As long as we criticize one another with respect, I don't think it's an issue.
" . . . the "I'm so ignorant" shtick is getting old. I didn't go to day school. I don't believe Larry Lennhoff went to day school. Yet we're fairly knowledgeable. Go out and study rather than criticize. Stop getting your information from the internet and start going out and actually learning."
Point taken. I've been going to shiurim at Mechon Hadar for a couple of years, but I haven't yet committed myself to serious learning on a regular basis, which I think is known as "kovea itim."
Amen to your prayer.
Shira- I think I read them, back when I used to read your blog more regularly- I don't know how I lost track of it for so long.
I wonder how much of the change is generational- I think the reality among many of my peers (who tend to straddle that Egal/Orthodox line) is different, in terms of divvying up shabbos/yontif activities than it is for folks a generation older.
I also think some of my caution against encouraging men to stay home more is that men are now less involved at synagogue than women are in the Reform movement, which has brought women into the shul the fastest. Now, there's no force of chiyuv there at all. Nevertheless, I don't think the best way to bring one group of people in is to help another group out. On the other hand, helping people find ways to have their kids in shul more easily might make a bigger difference...
"I wonder how much of the change is generational . . .n terms of divvying up shabbos/yontif activities . . . "
Good question. My own impression is that the changes *started,* to a great extent, in my generation (meaning the post-war baby boomers), and, I would hope, have continued to improve in later generations.
" . . . men are now less involved at synagogue than women are in the Reform movement, which has brought women into the shul the fastest." So I've heard. If that's true, that may indicate a problem.
" . . . helping people find ways to have their kids in shul more easily might make a bigger difference... "
Oh, brother, if I could count all the times I was told, in so many words, to go home with my kid and stay there, I'd be rich. :(
Re head-coverings, I can't find this post via blog search, for some unknown reason, so I'm guessing that you can't find it, either. I thought you might be amused to see the then-shorter-haired me puttin' on my "funny" hat. :)
VERY late to the party (I've just rediscovered your blog so I'm back dating!) but I just wanted to say how much I loved this post. My husband and I are nominally Liberal/Reform (UK version) but are members of a tiny non-affiliated shul that covers everything from very Reform to Orthodox. We have a two year old and another on the way.
Usually our son is more than welcome in shul but we did hit a problem over Yom Kippur (RH too but less so) when the shul was crowded with people who don't usually show up. There were many people who were much less understanding and it wasn't fair on either him to have him in the service. We generally share parenting duties but since my husband was fasting, I didn't feel comfortable asking him to take over on YK and so I ended up spending a grand total of about half an hour in shul. Without more recognition of the importance of raising children, those of us with small kids are left feeling utterly excluded on what should be the most spiritually rich part of the year.
I don't think there is a simple solution but recognition would help!
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